Bloodlines Mailing List archives March 11-15, 1997
from the John Stewart email list
Lots of comments on the Kingston Trio and a new website!- REB
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Subj: Re: introduction
Date: 97-03-11
From: PFARNAM@aol.com
Another Welcome aboard from a fellow Michigander (expatriate division)
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Subj: Re: introduction #3
Date: 97-03-12
From: GeryJarcia@aol.com
Charlie;
Your wife bought you tickets to see John? Now thats LOVE!
(ps, does she know what she's gotten you into?)
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Subj: Re: introduction #3
Date: 97-03-12
From: cwoodward@ucflink.com (Charlie Woodward)
Yep. 4 shows, too.
But it's really more like what's SHE gotten into!
She's (almost) as big a fan as I am now and a big fan of Dave's, too.
It's nice to have a musically compatible family.
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Subj: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-13
From: ddunet@concentric.net (Michelle Stevens)
I was watching "Rock and Roll" on PBS during the latest plegde drive and I
saw a nice piece on Dylan and then Paul Stookey was interviewed about the
"folk" influence. BTW, some of the things they said about Dylan could have
been said about John, too. Dylan was writing songs that had meaning and he
developed somewhat of an intellectual following.
Since there was no mention of what I always thought of as the folk
movement, it got me started thinking. For you folks who were concertgoers
throughout the 60s, can you explain to me (a relative youngster) what the
popular vs. folk vs. rock atmosphere was during those early years?
Who listened to the Kingston Trio?
How were they seen in light of the newly emerging British invaders and our
own domesticly derived popular singers?
Were they considered pretty straight-laced?
Were they as popular as say, PP&M?
And any other recollections you may have.
Thanks,
Michelle Stevens,
Bloodlines Mailing List Manager (bloodlines@world.std.com) and
John Stewart Site Webmistress (http://www.concentric.net/~ddunet/)
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-13
From: martink@mindspring.com (L. Kent Martin)
Well, ahem, at the risk of showing my age too overtly ... aw, who cares,
anyway? ... the Kingston Trio was the rage of the college campuses in the
early 60's, but the more I remember, the more I have to point to John's
oft-referenced turning point of our generation: Nov. 22, '63, when our
innocence died and a dark cloud lingered over our landscape. The Kingston
Trio represented the hip, folksy America pre-'63 ... but Kennedy's death,
followed so shortly afterward by the Beatles' arrival, hastened in a new era
of rock 'n roll and folk music "with an edge," exemplified by Dylan, PP&M
(who always gave ... then and now ... one whale of a performance ... sent
shivers up the ol' spine), as well as Phil Ochs (God rest his soul), Tom
Paxton and others who took the considerable foundation the KT had laid and
shaped it to fit the political and societal landscape of the time.
Case in point: Pete Seeger's star also rose (once again) with the new wave
of political unrest -- one of his more memorable appearances was on the old
Smothers Brothers' Show, when he sang a Vietnam-protest song, "Waist Deep in
the Big Muddy," that did nothing to ingratiate the Brothers to the CBS
censors ... not that they cared anyway. But it points to the direction folk
headed in the latter part of the decade ... away from the freshness, the
vibrance, the exhiliration of the KT and headlong into an angrier, edgier
time.
Guess what I'm trying to say is that the KT's style of folk always seemed
(to me, at least) more true to the genre's roots than the sound that Dylan &
Co. helped usher in, which was an entirely original sound that incorporated
the protest and restlessness of the chaos we knew as the 60's.
We could go on and on, Michelle ... and I think I'll close to let someone
else have a swing at this. But thanks for a very good ... thought-provoking
... question.
Missouri Bird,
Kent
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-13
From: ClackClack@aol.com
Just to add a tad to this thread, my observation of the pre-invasion was that
folk in the manner of the KT, Brothers Four, Bud & Travis realm was an
"innocent folk". As Kent noted, it pretty much died with the dream. But the
british invasion overwhelmed a lot of stuff- pretty much killed Beach music,
the pop crooners ala say Bobby Darin or a Gene Pitney and certainly did
serious damage to Elvis as the king of the hill.
As an alternate to all the invasion music and its American counterparts in
the form of the Byrds and Beau Brummels, the "popular" form of folk was in
essence protest song folk- even Donovan with songs like "Universal Soldier"
and Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction", PP&M, and Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Tom
Paxton, etc had a different kind of folk...
Ron
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: dr_pjenkins@telis.org (Dr. Paul Jenkins)
>Since there was no mention of what I always thought of as the folk
>movement, it got me started thinking. For you folks who were concertgoers
>throughout the 60s, can you explain to me (a relative youngster) what the
>popular vs. folk vs. rock atmosphere was during those early years?
Perhaps it was Nov of 63, or the "conflict overseas," or a serious breach
of faith in those who should have been trustworthy, but "Folk Singers"
became protest singers, and, in order to gain a wider audience, plugged in
and became folk-rockers. If you follow folks like Chris Hillman, who went
from bluegrass to the Byrds, or Bernie Leadon, banjo player and founding
member of the Eagles (listen to Dueling Daulton's), people changed with the
times. Seems like the bigger bucks were with electric bands, so those
looking for fortune changed. Some folkies, Joni Mitchell comes to mind,
stayed with the folk spirit and were well accepted. There was a time that
pop radio (AOR) played everything from an acoustic Dylan to Byrds to
Beatles. All seemed to co-exist for several years.
I remember seeing the Chad Mitchell Trio singing political songs (like the
John Birch Society) with wooden guitars at a venue in Santa Monica,
California, followed a few weeks later by the Who destroying their electric
instruments on the same stage. Never thought that was very unusual until
now. Somehow, it was just entertainment!
Good question - thanks for getting me thinking!
Paul
- * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
"All I want from tomorrow is to get it better than today." - Bruce Hornsby
"The more I know, the less I understand." - Don Henley
- * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: GregDenis@aol.com
In a message dated 97-03-13 23:32:56 EST, Kent Martin wrote:
<< the more I remember, the more I have to point to John's
oft-referenced turning point of our generation: Nov. 22, '63, when our
innocence died and a dark cloud lingered over our landscape. The Kingston
Trio represented the hip, folksy America pre-'63 ... but Kennedy's death,
followed so shortly afterward by the Beatles' arrival, hastened in a new era
of rock 'n roll and folk music "with an edge," exemplified by Dylan, PP&M
as well as Phil Ochs (God rest his soul), Tom
Paxton and others who took the considerable foundation the KT had laid and
shaped it to fit the political and societal landscape of the time. >>
Interesting thread here. I agree with Kent's comments and someone's (Clack?)
about the "innocence" of the Trio. It also seems to me that one of John's
great and stellar influences upon the trio (other than stuff like Desert Pete
and Rev. Mr. Black) was to bring some political and social relevance to the
music they did, Seeger's Where Have All the Flowers Gone being Exhibit A.
It was clear even at the time that John was the thinker in the group, saw and
understood the import of the great upheavals of the Sixties, wanted the Trio
to be a part of it all, and himself had something to say on the subject.
Without John (say, if John Phillips got the neo-Guard slot), the Trio wanders
off into irrelevance about 1962. And that would have been very sad, because
while the original and JS Trios were more white bread than it was soon cool
to be, they were terrific performers, had wonderful vocal harmonies, the
talent and good sense to make gospel and blues accessible to us ignorant
white folks -- and their role in the pantheon has long been underestimated,
even among other folk musicians.
-- Greg Dennis
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Subj: John Stewart
Date: 97-03-14
From: sala@brainerd.net (Dennis Slayton)
Today is the first day of the rest of your life---Go For It!
Hi Michelle,
A couple of questions that have plagued me for years!!
On the recording "Big Joe", whose voice is the last to be heard and what is
said? Sounds like a comment from the back ground. I've heard it was James
Taylor??
What is John's background? From his early recordings I've got the
impression he was raised with the horse group in Southern Calif.
Is "Signal through the Glass" still available??
Thanks Dennis
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Subj: Re: John Stewart and Celebrity Guests
Date: 97-03-14
From: Pjhayesofc@aol.com
Yes that is James singing "I'm a lonely frog (?) now baby"
Also you can hear Carole King do the opening count for "Marshall Wind"
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: davidltaylor5@worldnet.att.net (David L. Taylor)
Kent,
I was going to reply to Michelle, but you said it very well. I too lived
through those times, was a big fan of the Trio, PP&M, etc. and agree with
your analysis.
David
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: jbrassil@maine.com (John Brassil)
>For you folks who were concertgoers
>throughout the 60s, can you explain to me (a relative youngster) what the
>popular vs. folk vs. rock atmosphere was during those early years?
I'm not sure it was folk "vs." rock-- it seemed that there was music. My
friends liked the Trio, but liked Gene Pitney, too. It wasn't an either/or
deal for lots of us. For instance, at the jr. high school I attended in CT,
there was a folk group called "The Guardsmen" patterned after the KT. We
liked them, but we liked other groups that were electric. Of course, the
Trio was looked down on by the "true believers" who insisted that a song
was only a song when presented in an "authentic" or "ethnic" manner. This
viewpoint meant nothing in the popular culture, but there were plenty of
students on various college campuses who came to view the Trio in a
negative light (striped shirts? What a joke!) despite the fact that it was
the KT that clued them into acoustic folk music in the first place.
>
>Who listened to the Kingston Trio?
See above. They were very popular on campuses from 1959-1962 or so. At the
time I lived in the Boston area, where they were revered for "MTA" and
remained popular through "Greenback Dollar" and "The Reverend Mr. Black"
before the big fade. Lots of folks loved Dave Guard's stage presence and
chatter. John Stewart was not Dave. However, lots of KT listeners continued
enjoying the group, and came to love John's own style, humor, and genuine
warmth. I'll never forget hanging around the Bushnell Memorial Auditorium
after a nifty 1962 show in Hartford to meet the Trio, and finding 1) a
young John Stewart, happy to meet and talk with fans; 2) a sullen, distant
Bob Shane, 3) an enthusiastic but distracted Nick Reynolds. I never met
Dave Guard until the last half of the 1980's, but he was a genius. When he
lived in NH, I invited him to the school where I teach English to discuss
his book "Deirdre". He was an absolutely incredible source of insight, wit,
and intelligence, and an inspiration to boot (even though he was, sadly,
running his last few laps). We went to dinner after his 3-hour
class/session; it was during our conversation that I came to understand
this giant left the KT (other than for reasons involving mu$ic publishing
snafu). I suppose the best way I can put it that he was an explorer, and
the KT was not heading in a direction he wanted to go. Anyway, I digress.
>How were they seen in light of the newly emerging British invaders and our
>own domesticly derived popular singers?
The British Invasion commanded the media's full attention. In a flash, it
was over. Gone to Decca, gone to oblivion, everyone. Months later, what's
this-- Buffy Ford and John Stewart? Huh? A nice change from "Sgt. Pepper"
and "Strawberry Fields Forever".
>Were they considered pretty straight-laced?
Yup. That was more or less the image. However, the same "straight-laced"
image was exposed as a mirage later in the 1960's, when it was employed by
Murray Wilson, the "father" of the Beach Boys, Capitol's other
striped-shirted group.
>Were they as popular as say, PP&M?
I'd say they were MORE popular than PPM in the NE until the advent of
"Puff"-- PPM also was poised (image-wise) to score with the
protest/civil-rights movement; this enabled them to persist as the Trio's
popularity clearly faded around 1965-on. Of course, PPM was every bit as
"contrived" as the Trio. But, hey, so what?
>
>And any other recollections you may have.
Lots of scratches on the LPs in no way reduced our enjoyment of the songs
on them. Of course, we could go out and buy a new, stereo copy one for
$3.85 when the mono copy wore out. Of course, I wish Capitol had the class
to release Stewart Trio stuff on CD. But, as they say, that's business.
Thank God for Allen Shaw.
John Brassil
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: MButters@aol.com
A few more thoughts on this thread.
Re: as popular as Peter, Paul, & Mary. In some ways, bigger. The Trio had
album sales records that only the Beatles could rival (by various estimates,
from four to six lps in the Top Ten simultaneously).
The Trio broke ground. While The Weavers were the first big folk group, it
was the Trio who established a steady position on the chart and who helped to
establish (some would say singlehandedly established) the LP as the primary
form of recorded consumable music, displacing the single forever.
The Trio were almost too popular for their own ultimate good. By the mid- to
late-60's, many listeners found their fraternity brother image (due mostly to
the remaining Shane/Reynolds contingency) , well, corny.
John Stewart helped rescue the Trio from that. I agree that, without him, the
Trio would not have survived Dave Guard's retirement as anything other than
an instant "oldies" act. Which, before the advent of boomer nostalgia, would
probably have been more aptly viewed as "used to be's".
This is not to reflect on the quality of the music in any way. But there is
an image side to all show business. And a political side to a lot of the show
business that we're talking about here.
Dave Guard said he left the Trio because he was "tired of singing the same
damn songs over and over again". Shane and Reynolds were happy not to tinker
with the formula that had made them so successful, and that they had all
worked to perfect. It's been said before (I think by Rediscover's Allen Shaw)
that the Trio's artistry was they made telling stories and singing and
playing songs look so easy that "anyone could do it" ... but any number of
wannabe groups have literally bored millions of people to tears trying.
John was a Kennedy sixties guy who joined a group that was distinctively late
Eisenhower in its sensibilities. His influence kept the group as relevant as
possible for as long as possible. But the contrast is remarkable. John
marched in Selma with Martin Luther King, Jr., Bob and Nick spent their spare
time racing cars and skeet shooting. No judgement here. After 200+ days on
the road, plus contractual obligations for *four* albums a year, you're
entitled to do whatever you dang well please. But the differences were there
and they were remarkable, a microcosmic snapshot of the kind of generational
gap that was snowballing all around us.
At one point, it was kind of unhip to like the Trio. I've never been one for
class prejudice, and it was as unfair and stupid then as it seems like, now.
In fairness, the Trio had a very hard time competing on a quality basis, at
four LPs a year, with PP&M, who, if you'll recall, only produced about *one*
LP per year. Vive la difference.
About that class prejudice thing. It's always amazed me that it's not ok to
like certain artists because of their genre. People used to "yuck" the
Carpenters for their syrup until Karen was dead and everyone came out of the
closet about "what a great set of pipes". Tell me about it. Pop artists get
rapped a lot anyway, for their lack of highbrow appeal. I think that's odd,
seeing as how you get that attitude from a lot of people who like Shakespeare
for his "universality". In his day, he was a pop artist, also, I gather.
Sorry for my length of wind. Hope it's somehow illuminating, if only for the
gas content.
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: lnhfbo@polaristel.net (Luke N. Havumaki)
My own recollections of the Kingston Trio et. al. were a little like
seeing a familiar person turning around the corner ahead of you. You're
not quite close enough to say "hello", but you recognize that they were
there. I grew up with two older sisters and one older brother (my
brother had little musical interests) but my sisters were quite eclectic.
I graduated from high school in '74, but the music I cared about was the
stuff I grew up with (Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel) My father played Pete
Seeger records and other "folk" albums, but alas died when I was a teen.
However, the music he played Seeger, The Weavers, New Christy Minstrals,
The Brothers Four, and the Trio stuck with me. They had broken up by the
time I was buying my own stuff, but I always treasured those individuals
and groups who had simple melodies, great harmonies, and songs that
actually meant something. After "discovering" John Stewart with BADB, I
remembered vaguely an album cover of one I had played over and over as a
kid. Three guys on the cover (guitar, stand up bass, banjo), brown
background, and one of those guys looked familiar. Imagine the joy of
finding a lost friend and that may be near the feeling I had when after
30 years or so, I was able to pull out an album from among my father's
that we had stored in the basement at my mom's....The Cumberland Three.
Did you ever turn a corner and wonder why you did?...
Luke
There is a train and it runs by my room
And the train is called reality and it's coming way too soon.-John Stewart
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Subj: Update: John Stewart UK Fan Page
Date: 97-03-14
From: slowcoach@easynet.co.uk (Bob Elliot)
Hi
I have just updated my website.
Omaha Rainbow issue 6 (John Stewart content) now on line plus some
photos.
Also a new page featuring Itinerary/Tour dates.
Hope you like.
Bob Elliot
==
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk./~slowcoach/basement/bobs.html
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-14
From: martink@mindspring.com (L. Kent Martin)
At 10:35 PM 3/13/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Who listened to the Kingston Trio?
>How were they seen in light of the newly emerging British invaders and our
>own domesticly derived popular singers?
>Were they considered pretty straight-laced?
>Were they as popular as say, PP&M?
One more lingering thought since my reply the night prior: I would also
posit that the musical evolution you described ... with the advent of the
Beatles, the new incarnations of rock 'n roll and folk ... was a critical
development in John's own role and emergence as a solo artist. Say Kennedy
was never killed, the Beatles never came, even 'Nam was aborted ... the Trio
would probably have broken up anyway but the landscape would have been
vastly different for John to enter the scene.
It seems that because of 11/22/63, the Beatles, et al., that John was
perfectly poised to launch himself when he did with "California Bloodlines."
One of his greatest strengths as a songcrafter has been the counterpoint
poignancy he writes in his songs, about the America we used to remember,
about innocence lost and dreams still on the rise. Is this the classic case
of artistry in the face of adversity, of brilliance out of despair? No
doubt John's genius would manifest itself regardless of the time but it all
seems so much richer against the backdrop of the 60's.
I dunno ... think I'll grab a beer and meditate.
And again, Michelle, thanks for stirring all of this up ...
A Missouri Boid,
Kent
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Subj: Untitled
Date: 97-03-15
From: Angelbravo@aol.com
Dear bloodlines@world.std.com,
The ANGELBRAVO WEBSITE is up and running.
Http://www.best.com/~jcstew/
Everyone welcome, open twenty four hours a day, every day! Please take off
your shoes before you come in.
See you on web!!
Bravo out.
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Subj: Re: JS Web Site
Date: 97-03-15
From: Netennis@aol.com
I tried the new site and couldn't get through. Is this the correct address?
Http://www.best.com/~jcstew/
When I try it I get a message about not being being able parse and about it
not being formed properly.
Gordon Kent
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Subj: Re: JS Web Site
Date: 97-03-15
From: ClackClack@aol.com
In a message dated 97-03-15 00:37:57 EST, you write:
> When I try it I get a message about not being being able parse and about it
> not being formed properly.
>
> Gordon Kent
Gordon-
use a small http
http://www.best.com/~jcstew/
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Subj: Re: JS Web Site
Date: 97-03-15
From: Angelbravo@aol.com
Yea that's it. Enter in top address box of another site then press enter key
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Subj: Re: New Web Site
Date: 97-03-15
From: Paul4500@aol.com
John, your new Web Site is way cool! Congratulations on raising the bar
once again. Looking forward to McCabe's April 5!
Paul
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Subj: Re: New Web Site
Date: 97-03-15
From: Angelbravo@aol.com
muchas gracias amigo
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Subj: Re: KT Influence
Date: 97-03-15
From: PFARNAM@aol.com
Boy, does this bring back memories! I started listening to the KT back in
1957 or 1958. I drove my family crazy with them, always playing each new
album, over and over and over!! The KT opened me up to the rest of folk
music, R&B, even some jazz, but I always came back to the KT. When John
replaced Dave, I was initially, put off, but after listening to his first
album as a member a couple of times, I was even more of a fan. I went to
every concert in the area. From 1957 thru 1962, the KT was very big. From
early1963, I believe they gradually began to loose out to other folk groups,
the Beatles, Dylan, etc. I continued to buy their albums, but finding them,
became a bit more difficult. I was in the middle of my own personal and
political changes, going from a Goldwater conservative, in the 1964
Presidential Campaign, to voting for Eldridge Cleaver in 1968, so at times, I
was a bit confused about what I liked. In 1969, I found the California
Bloodlines album, and have been a confirmed JS fanatic ever since.
In the early sixties, the KT did, it seems to me, come to have a bit of a
"white bread" reputation, but I always thought they were marvelous. I
remember hearing my father, who always professed not to like them, commenting
about how musically talented they were as he was listening to "Worried Man"
as we were riding in his car one day, and the song was being played on the
radio. I think they were more talented than almost all of their
contemporaries. They were so good, in fact, that it wasn't that obvious.
John is very much the same way, in my opinion. He is so talented a
musician, and so brilliant a songwriter, that he makes it seem very easy, and
we don't realize what he is doing. Listening to John's music takes mental
and emotional effort and commitment. And his music is very well worth that
effort.
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Subj: John's new web site !
Date: 97-03-15
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
This isn't just another web site; this one has motion. It doesn't sit
still. This is what a personal web site ought to be, making and mapping
connections, pushing in all directions. I absolutely love it.
[Everyone please Indulge me here--or at least forgive me]
Disgruntled folk fan overheard discussing Darwin's Army (quoted at John's
site):" Boy in the Bubble isn't folk music."
An obscure answer:
"Darwin's fundamental contribution, implies a new coupling of individuals
and milieus . . . .
"The forms do not pre-exist the populations, they are more like
statistical results. . . . The embryo does not testify to an absolute form
preestablished in a closed milieu; rather the phylogenesis of populations
has at its disposal, in an open milieu, an entire range of relative forms
to choose from, none of which is preestablished. . . . the points of
referrence themselves are in motion: there are only fixed points for
convenience of expression. At the level of universal evolution, it is
impossible to discern that kind of reference point. . . . .
Darwin's two fundamental contributions move in the
direction of a science of multiplicities. . . . nomadic contributions with
shifting boundaries . . . .
-Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guatarri
_A_Thousand_Plateaus_
Now, it occurs to me that these boundary crossings--this "nomadism"-- is
both what makes your work inaccessable to many, but also extremely
important. All your major tropes are boundary crossings: Wingless Angels
cross heaven and earth; roads, rivers, highways flow across state
territorial lines as well as lives and time; Rte. 66 specifically crosses
state, cultural, and historical lines. We are never where we're "supposed"
to be when we listen to your music--or visit your web site. One has to be
comfortable with that in order to appreciate your contribution.
Apologies to the 99% of you who did't want to read a treatise. But . . . it
*is* a really inspirational web site.
del
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Subj: Re: John's new web site !
Date: 97-03-15
From: donfish@sttl.uswest.net (D&L Ruiz/Peeveyroo)
I second everything Del said.
I also like the cool coffee mug. -- Don
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Subj: Re: Dinner (yum, yum)
Date: 97-03-15
From: DMotley@aol.com
My wife, and I will be at both Mc Cabes shows on April 5. Is anyone
interested in getting together beforehand for drinks, and, or dinner. (I'm
not talking about at the Wienerschnitzel accross from Mc Cabes)? Does
anyone know any good places to eat in Santa Monica? How about pizza?
Maybe a whole bunch of us could meet and eat. Let me know if you are
interested.
"Keep it flying" , Mott
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Subj: Re: John's new web site !
Date: 97-03-15
From: ClackClack@aol.com
It IS a crazy fun site, isn't it.
It's not the end, it's the beginning, here's to Errol Flynning...
and I think those mugs look really cool too.
Ron
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Subj: Re: John's new web site !
Date: 97-03-15
From: lnhfbo@polaristel.net (Luke N. Havumaki)
Yes, I agree...the mugs look really cool. But you gotta love the artwork
and the layout...
I use both Netscape and Explorer for browsing, the Explorer is now set up
to start automatically at John's page.
I've also always loved John's version of Boy in the Bubble on Neon Beach.
Still it's only wishing...
Luke
There is a train and it runs by my room
And the train is called reality and it's coming way too soon.-John Stewart
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